Talk:Debate: Pantheism vs. Deism
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Welcome to the first ever dedicated debate/discussion between Deists and Pantheists -- no Atheists or Monotheists please, tho all are welcome to observe (Pandeists and Panendeists are welcome to participate under whichever view best reflects them, or independently if neither does). Pandeism 03:42, 22 May 2010 (EDT)
Let us begin, what are our topics and rules for debate? Here's the outline of topics I'd put up (with credit to Steve from World Deism for contributing some ideas):
Pantheism, Deism, and Pandeism
Topic 1: Is or was there a designer/creator of our Universe? Is such a concept reconcilable with pantheism?
- Did our Universe have a "beginning," a time before which there was nothing but God? or nothing at all?
Topic 2: Where is "God" now?
- Is God confined within the Universe; Is God our Universe [Pan]
- Does God contain and therefore transcend our Universe [Panen]
- Is God entirely separate from our Universe [Mono]
Topic 3: Is God "active"? Are there revelations or other interventions? Would true miraculous events require a God, even?
Anyone have any suggestions on improving or adding to this list?
- I expanded upon the questions a bit. Pandeism 01:16, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
You need a Topic 0: What is meant in your belief set by the word God? BTW how are you going to arrange the two sides - is it Pantheism on the one side and Deisms on the other? You would then need to have three answers on the Deist side. --World Pantheist 15:04, 25 May 2010 (EDT)
- I can shift that up and make it topic 1.... to be honest, I'm not at all fond of the word "God" what with all its historic baggage -- I prefer Deus or simply "the Creator" (though I understand you may not equate "God" with a creator at all). As to how the sides will be divied, I suppose pantheists to the left and deists to the right, as a coin flip, with those from each side expressing their views and responding to views/arguments/evidence from the other side. Since you're here, we can begin!! Pandeism 15:31, 25 May 2010 (EDT)
Okay, I feel the optimum way to determine when to start is to first get the participants lined up and then enter discourse. So, here I would like to ask that those committed to participating in the discussion sign up, and once we have reached at least three deist representatives and at least three pantheist representatives we may launch. Pandeism 16:16, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
- Hey if anyone else signs up please message me on my talk page (here so I'll be pinged.... Pandeism 23:57, 24 May 2010 (EDT)
- Deist (Jayson X, deputy director of The World Union of Deists (www.deism.com))
- PanenDeist (Larry Copling, founder of PanenDeism.com)
- HarryTeaux 00:31, 13 May 2010 (EDT)
- World Pantheist Paul Harrison, President, World Pantheist Movement. 15:00, 25 May 2010 (EDT)
- Svaha --Svaha 12:40, 29 August 2010 (EDT)9:38, 29 August (PDT)
- Pandeism 16:16, 12 May 2010 (EDT)
- Felix King
Thanks to everyone who's signed up so far. We need one Deist and two Pantheists to kick this off, or we can go to two to a side and just get one more Pantheist in. I'm ok either way! Pandeism 03:13, 22 May 2010 (EDT)
- Great, now we need but two more Pantheist representatives!! Pandeism 17:24, 22 May 2010 (EDT)
- Paul Harrison counts for two average Pantheists (tho we can still take a third if another signs on), so let us begin!! Pandeism 15:32, 25 May 2010 (EDT)
HT, your answer to question 5 was not a pantheist position - there is no version of pantheism that believes in an unchanging God outside of time. Your previous answers point to God being the same as the Universe, and so this response seems to contradict even your own previous answers. Here's what you wrote: - Good question. Obviously I don't know, but I think the answer is that God is unchanging, that God exists outside of time (see question 3) and as such exists in all states at once and is unchanging. --World Pantheist 18:28, 25 May 2010 (EDT)
I don't agree. It may not fit your position, but pantheism is a general group of beliefs, and as far as I know that issue isn't one of the critical ones. Spinoza is often considered pantheist, but that is consistent with his beliefs. While there are organized Pantheists, pantheism itself is not a fixed set of beliefs. I can only argue from a position that makes sense to me.
But if my views are causing the discussion to go wrong, I will withdraw. I did not intend to disrupt things, only to enter into a meaningful discussion with others (hopefully without the usual BS of other venues). Say the word ... (HT)
Beginning at the Beginning...
It seems to me that a good beginning of a discussion such as this would be a Socratic one- agreement on definitions. How should we define Source Energy, "God", The One, etc.?
Our respective positions goes a long way in supplying that definition. A "pantheist" basically considers the nature of God to be equal to "all that is". The entire, physical universe is literally God's "body" to a pantheist.
A "panENtheist" takes a modified (and more accurate, in my opinion) view and considers the nature of God to include the universe, but God's presence would go beyond the physical, into that "transcendent domain" we read about in quantum physics. This is also the position of the "panenDeist", like myself.
The [classic] Deist has a more traditional understanding of the nature of God that more closely aligns with the Theist: God is a transcendent being that exists apart from the physical universe. Of course, classic Deism is not terribly consistent these days and there is much disagreement among Deists as to just what they should believe in. All of us suffer a little with that ailment, I suspect.
Finally, the "panENdeist" follows very closely with the ideas of the panentheist, as concerning the nature of God. All that IS, is located within the Deity.
I think that pretty much sums up the different positions. Have I gone "off track" anywhere so far?
- That's just the discussion we've begun -- but this is really just the planning page, if you go up and click the "Article" tab next to the "Discussion" tab, you'll see where this ought to be posted.... and thanks! Pandeism 00:22, 26 May 2010 (EDT)
This "panen" vs. "pan" and "deist" vs. "theist" conundrum is a semantic issue at best. One would posit that the viewpoint of that which is physical and not physical, should not be the determinate factor of whether one is Pantheist, or not. Such differentiation only becomes apparent by giving credence to those individuals who view Pantheism from a primarily materialist perspective. Whereas, the spiritual Pantheist would view Panentheism no different than Pantheism insofar as The Great One whom we move through and have our being is both the manifest and un-manifest, and includes multiple dimensions beyond the manifest domain. Those pantheists who adhere to understanding one facet of the gem that is Creator & Creation, cleave unto the manifest domain and shun those whom resonate with the unseen aspect of Deity and have created new titles to differentiate perspectives. True pantheism is inclusive of all this. Such a multiplicity of being is balanced and reconciled in unity of being and non being. To be dismissive of the nature of transcendence beyond matter, time, and space would be limiting that which is limitless. --Svaha 13:07, 29 August 2010 (EDT)
Brothers and Sisters ...
Please forgive me, I knew not what I was doing. If you can, please start over and I will simply watch and learn. For those of you who did post I thank you so much, because I am most fascinated by your perspectives and opinions. I learned much.